I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? That has been the best comment so far. Ammunition can really change performance. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy Wellcome L0024127.jpg 1,080 1,787; 799 KB. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. Moreover, law enforcement shootings typically result in only one or two solid torso hits on adversaries. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. Reality. Open carry is fine where Im at. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to Model. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 250 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. Love reading your stuff. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. I like all of them. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. I know I prefer .45ACP. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. Everything I understand and everything I have read and looked into if persons really going to throw down its going to be less than 15 yards and closer, at that point and Im just being honest I dont even use my rear sights once I get within 10 yards of a silhouette Im just going off at the front sight Focus and thats it, I compensate for the offset not using the rear sights by dropping the front sight a couple inches lower to anticipate the recoil and it is very accurate. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. I prefer 45 revolvers. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. I have several. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? Thats why were here right? It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. Yes I can only get 2 shots off accurately in the same time as 4 with a 9 but again 2 usually does it. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. There is little or no noticeable difference in wound tracks between 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto premium line rounds. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. A .223 is just 55 grains. What a joke! Every round has its purpose. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. High-velocity In response to this, ammunition makers began to design Hollowpoint bullets which would expand in the air during flight. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. Everyone should be mocking the .223 as a pea shooter. The projectile, a 7.62 x 39 bullet, hit the House majority whip with between 370 and 1,550 foot-pounds of force. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. For a tommygun, I'd probably go with 1d8 base damage, +1 magical weapon bonus to represent penetration and damage, and the ability to make a cone area attack (save or take damage). Oh boy, that could start a whole new area of discussion 1911 vs 1926, most common bullet weights, etc. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended very obvious. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. I recently bought a Sig P227 Tacops. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. CHEERS. The damage was far too extensive. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. 9mm beats .45acp. Yes, I know it was a +P round, but then, there arent any grizzly bears in my neck of the woods. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. And let us not forget the adrenaline factor. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. I carried an issue 45. If an operator like a .45 go for it. During a dynamic gun battle with erratic movement by both officer and adversary, this requires extraordinary marksmanship or, more likely, pure luck. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. I also have one that many people will call garbage. We have much better tools now. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. At 70, I choose to go small & straight! Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. The concern that a round will pass through an assailant and harm an innocent bystander is largely exaggerated. I have been hand loading my rifle and pistol ammo since 1975. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. The Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. Open the tools menu in your browser. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. I spend a great deal of time on the range. The FBI just did the same thing. Ships To Store. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Muscle memory is great thing. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. Good article and very good to great comments. True. I thought a 55 115lb girl with small hands would want a .380, so I was surprise when she chose a Walther PPS in 9mm. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky.. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. After reading your article, I had to 1.) Also we are talking pistols. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. George. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? I know they dont keep records like this; but if you could count all the rounds fired in a battle, and how many kills were made by each caliber; would that not be a better indicator of the efficiency of the caliber. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. Yes, yeas I have. round, you can see all three effects. They are both capable of inflicting mortal wounds far beyond practical range. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. Officer Needs Help!!! However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. The science says otherwise. The one magor factor that keeps deciding the outcome is if the victim or assailant has the actual ability to kill. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. Be Safe Out There. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. So In a effort to For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. Its a High Point .40S&W. I Have hair and an angular face. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. EVER! Glad you are doing well. Remember, people dont have health bars. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). Their over 800 FPS and some approaching 900 FPS with the hotter +P loads. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. You have renewed my faith in man. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. By the way. The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. I hear arguments attempting to compare a 9mm Gold dot bullet (a hollow point expanding bullet) to a .45 Hydrashock bullet (a hollow cavity expanding bullet with a hardened sabot embedded in the cavity. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. sledgehammer. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. Its why neck-down cartridges for .223 are even used. Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. Its hard for Civilians to understand the firepower of the Military & Police, and what they can choose to bring to bear on their target, but we are responsible for each bullet fired, as Civilians! Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. end of discussion. Where aim for the middle of the whole body. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun!